Me, I'm just confused about how the guy I used to circle with, who wrote several interesting and well-conceived books on modern Paganism, who reads (or at least used to read) a mean Tarot and maintain several polyamourous relationships, has now joined the tottering, genocidal beast called Catholicism at a time when its cardinals have clearly shown a hard-right-wing direction. A time when the new Pope - a former Nazi - has derided the concilatory gestures of the former (and much-revered) Pope, declared homosexuality anathema, and dismissed his predecessor's reforms. I'm just confused about how a man I have known and respected for years as one of those neopagans who gave a damn has become a public apostate of the modern Pagan movement to join the Catholic Church as it lurches rightward. You got me confoozled, Carl. This isn't about Christianity-bashing - this is puzzlement.

The only issue I really had with the first installment was the bold face statment that "Without advent, pagans have nothing to keep them out of the commercialism of the season." I think this says a couple of things, and none of them overwhelmingly nice to pagans. First, it implies that the bustle of the holiday season is, in and of itself, bad - which is broad and general statement. And second it implies that pagans have no will power to keep the commericalism of the season from affecting them throughout the holidays. All this simply because they don't have an "Advent".

I can't speak to what established pagan traditions have done as a time leading up to the solstice, but as a solitary non-liturgical pagan I find this time of quiet repose before the turning of the season quite introspective.

I haven't read the article you posted on beliefnet, as I have little interest in Christian advent, so these comments refer solely to this post and what I've read in your LJ before.

You seem very fond of dismissing anyone who disagrees with you by saying that it's outside of your experience. Quite frankly, it comes across as a subtle way of calling them liars. From what I've read, your experience is not as all-encompassing as you seem to think. You seem to be genuinely clueless about very large segments of Paganism, which is understandable as you're only one person (yes, you've read a lot of books. Hurray for you; so have I).

"God bless one commentator, named Wyote, who very simply noted, 'People are projecting their own issues into the article.'"

This made me laugh my ass off, as I am of the opinion that you are projecting your own issues into your criticisms of Paganism.

I often find much of value, much to think about in your writings, but quite frankly sometimes you come off as a jackass who thinks he knows it all (such as the statement "Having studied Pagan approaches to the ritual year with two different Wiccan covens and a druid organization, not to mention all the book-learning I did while researching The Well-Read Witch...(etc)." Well, other people see a man with a shallow understanding of Paganism despite his self-described extensive experience, who would rather abandon a faith than delve deeper into it... because yes, that's right, everything you think is lacking can be found if you take the time to look without prejudice, something you seem incapable of. Okay, maybe not everything; Paganism doesn't have books and popes to do your thinking for you; you actually have to seek within yourself to find what you're looking for. Of course, maybe you did that and found nothing within. That's your problem, not Paganism's.

I have to say, that article did strike me as snarking at Pagans. Why would Pagans need a ceremonial counterbalance to the commercialism of Christmas, when just BEING PAGAN is such a counterbalance? When you celebrate the Winter Solstice as a religious holiday, and then get together with your family for Christmas because that's what *they* do...that gives you an entirely different perspective on it. But the problem is that you're using the lack of a formal Advent season as a criticism of Paganism, when it doesn't need one. You were saying that people misquoted you; but you didn't say that Paganism has no equivalent to Advent (which is true or not true depending on how you define "equivalent to Advent"); what you said was that it had no ceremonial counter to the consumerism of the pre-Christmas season. It doesn't need one because Yule is not the same as Christmas; you don't need a ceremonial solution to a problem you don't have.

Also, I don't know how you missed the season between Samhain and Yule being one of quiet contemplation, because it's a really, really common idea.

My most central question is, why did you feel the need to take potshots at Paganism in the first place? Are you surprised that you got the reaction you did? Why should you be? You've done it more than once, and each time you don't seem to see the connection between what you say and the reaction you get. You said that beliefnet posted your article on the Pagan pages...but you also posted a link to it here, when you know lots of Pagans read your LJ. Not only did you know that the article was going to be read by more than just a Christian audience, you *chose* that audience.

In general, the problem is that you don't seem to make a distinction between certain elements of Paganism not speaking to you personally or working for you, and them not being there at all...as if your experience defines Paganism. This is arrogance, and it's not surprising that people see it as such. You saying "in my experience" isn't a bad thing...except that you make broad, sweeping statements about Paganism, and then when people object, you fall back to your experience, and seem to think that settles the matter...when all that says to me is that either your experience or your understanding of it was not enough to base broad statements on.

I was going to leave a comment there but it didn't like me.

As I've said on several occasions I find your reflection on your journey fascinating and respectful of diverse traditions.

Advent is one of my favorite parts of Ed's "work" church (he's music minister at an Episcopal church). And the transition from Advent to Christmas heightens the celebratory nature of Christmas in a way that no amount of shopping can that's for sure!

We may be UUs with a slight taoist/pagan orientation but we appreciate the ritual and celebrations of Advent and Christmas.

Have a lovely and relfective holiday!

I would like to say that I do not see any problems with your article. It doesn't seem like an attack on Paganism (I capitialize because it is a religion, with various branches, like Christianity and Judaism), it is a compare and contrast based on your experience as both a Pagan and a Christian.

I think some people have a problem with a Pagan converting to Christianity, especially since there are so many Fundies with an agenda who claim to have been evil Satanic Pagans until they discovered the truth of Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. It does not seem to me that you have done that. Becoming Catholic seems to be an organic growth and evolution to your beliefs. I read Embracing Jesus and the Goddess (reviewed it with my Christian husband for Pagan Education Network's newsletter). I can see why you would choose Catholicism over the plethora of Christian denominations.

I am a Pagan, but over the years my definition of what that means to me has changed drastically. How I describe myself has changed as well. Luckily, I am also a UU, so I can change religions all I want and still attend the same church. :-)

Good luck to you and happy holidays!

Going to try and keep from rambling off at the mouth, but did want to insert some comments.

Ultimately you had the choice to write or not write the article... there have been times in the past when I've been offered good money to write on something that I found unethical or undesirable, and I turned it down. Keeping in mind that you made the active decision to write the article, given the way the article is marketed, you're going to attract mostly two kinds of readers:

1. Christians who see this set of articles as a justification that recruitment practices (evangelization/proselytization) are effective means of converting non-Christians and should be continued with more "holiday zeal".
2. Pagans who see this set of articles as a back-handed bashing of someone who got disillusioned by the Pagan scene, but still is more than willing to make a buck at their expense. (A way around this might be to say that given your change in spiritual beliefs, all author royalties that you get from sales of your books on Pagan topics will be directly donated to the church. Granted, that opens another tempest in a teapot, but it might make it look less like you're still trying to cash in on Paganism even if you've switched religions.)

My guess is that neither of those two groups are the kind of people that you wanted to reach, however. Still, the way it is marketed (mostly the title, but then also issues with the placement), that's what you're going to get.

I must say that your experience about the weeks leading up to the solstice are far different than mine. In fact, from the training and experience that I've received, the weeks leading up to the solstice are *more* significant than the solstice itself. Without boring you with all the details of things that are done, there's a focus on the review and adaptation of one's self, service to the (secular) community at large, and a lot of planning for the next year. At the solstice, all these things that come up between Hallows and Yule end up coalescing into one focused declaration for what is to come--an indwelling spark made manifest.

Likewise, your advent experiences also differ from mine. My "advent experience" in the Lutheran and Presbyterian church is that it was a way to provide the Christmas story in daily bite-size pieces, which were then repeated at Christmas Eve. Advent wasn't about waiting, but a huge focus on the "get it now" mentality that is fully absorbed by the post-Thanksgiving shopping rush. It was a way to provide "mini-Christmas" every day, that way you could keep the hype going in a commercial-driven time when the religious side of the Christmas hype might get lost. I don't believe that is a necessarily bad thing, mind you.

Within the "Sunday services" of advent, the focus was more on making sure that there was a theme opportunity to hit warm and fuzzy topics that could be cleverly tied in with appropriate carols for each. I guarantee that if you ask most Christians what each individual advent candle represents, they might be able to guess a couple, but probably couldn't tell you all of them. The focus simply isn't there. If the Catholic church focuses on the Mary aspect, that is different from my Christian experiences. The first time that Mary is mentioned as pregnant in most of the protestant liturgy that I've been privvy to is on Christmas eve. (Aside from some that do a brief mention of the Magnificat.)

Ultimately the spiritual connotations actively preached by Christians that I know as "advent" are identical to those that are kept within the hearts of the Pagans that I know. Christians may have a desire to make a public statement about the need to watch mysteries unfold on a daily basis. Pagans act more like Mary... "But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." (Luke 2:19)

Pagan or Christian, that's what happens during the season of Yule or the season of Advent.

Do you really believe that "Beliefnet accidentally posted this piece to their Paganism page for two days"? Beliefnet loves the kind of controversy stirred up by their "mistake" -- otherwise they wouldn't keep publishing the right-wing tripe Rabbi Shmuley Boteach writes.

Beliefnet's "Pagan & Earth-Based" page still has a link to Anne Rice's story of returning to the Catholic Church, which is interesting since (to my knowledge) she never identified herself as Pagan. I think they're doing things like this to stimulate discussion and keep people coming back to their site (and clicking on their ads).

Having said that, I'll admit that Beliefnet is my computer "home page" at both home and at work. They DO have great articles along with the tripe.

man, I am just constantly amazed at your ability to put yourself out there. If people were this mean to me, I'd be sobbing. I can't decide if you are brave or crazy. probably a litte of both!

hope you are finding a way to be nurtured

I am more Pagan than Christian these days but I didn't see anything offensive in your article. Nothing you have written that I have ever read has seemed condescending or preachy. You simply state your own opinion which any of us has a right to do. I guess I'm a little jealous of you because you seem to have be experiencing Catholicism as it was always meant to be. I was Catholic for thirty years but I had to leave the Church to find what you have found within it. That doesn't mean either of us is wrong, its just another of the differences in people that make life so interesting!

You and I have had many discussions about the wide subject at hand. Once again I am grateful that I was raised UU, and therefore escaped carrying damage from an oppressive christian childhood. So many pagans still carry scars from the more scary brands of Christianity. I found no insult in your article, and I fear that some folks will always be quick to find insult. As others have said, we have no advent because we need no advent. There is a welsh time of contemplation that runs from Samhain through Imbolc. It is called Amser Gwylad, which means Time of Vigil. Is it pre-christian? It is hard to say, as that term can be hard to define in the British Isles where all is a mix. Is it analogous to Advent? No. Solstice really isnt amologus to Christmas. There is no evidence to support that soltice was a big deal among the celts. All the christians did was steal the date...not the celebration. So, if Solstice isn't Christmas, then we have no advent. As someone else said we don't need one to avoid the mercantile rush. We are Pagan.

I haven't been reading your stuff very long, but I liked the article and didn't see any particular slams at Paganism at all.

Of course, I'm a "cradle" UU Christian in a church where the largest single group now is probably Pagans, and we all get along just fine, which is more that I can say about the unlamented period when the majority were aethists and Humanists. I'll take anybody's ceremony as long as I don't have to go to another *&@#$ discussion group ;-)

I am so sorry you flamed like that. I also am a former Pagan, though many of my Christian friends would still consider me a Pagan. I found nothing offensive in your article. You are describing your own experiences and thoughts. How can others criticize those? I think Pagans are feeling defensive just because your conversion implies that there was something wrong with Paganism, therefore you had to convert to the 'vastly superior' Christianity. If Christianity wasn't superior, you wouldn't have converted.

This is a false premise, however. For instance, I find much that is good and, to my mind, superior about Paganism, just as I feel there are areas about Christianity that are superior to Paganism. But this is highly subjective and personal. One can not assume that I find one or the other as superior as a whole. Nor what I like about one or the other would appeal to others. So, in matters as personal as religion, I find it odd that people would criticize your own observations and personal religious needs as a critique of their own personal choices.

No where in any of your articles do I see any evangelicizing nor statments that Paganism is somehow deficient as a religion...it just didn't meet your own needs in certain areas. Nor do your articles read to me as the zealousness of a convert.

I hope I am expressing myself correctly here...I've had a busy day of mass consumerism and commercialization. *grin* Perhaps the following better expresses what I mean:

Religions are many and diverse, but reason and goodness are one. Elbert Hubbard, The Roycroft Dictionary and Book of Epigrams, 1923.

In the matter of religion, people eagerly fasten their eyes on the difference between their own creed and yours; whilst the charm of the study is in finding the agreements and identities in all the religions of humanity. Ralph Waldo Emerson

Happy holidays, y'all.

-Liadan Giolle Brighide

If you can stand one more comment on this subject I just wanted to point out that a lot of people seemed to miss the fact that this article was a diary. A diary is made up of personal reflections, thoughts, and experiences which probably won't exactly match someone else's. If I would describe my experience with marriage, childbirth, my job, school, religion, or any activity I have ever been part of I would probably get at least fifty people protesting "But it wasn't like that for me!" I love hearing about what other people believe because it usually gives me something to think about. I don't understand why people get so defensive when someone doesn't agree with them. I think it means they aren't too secure in their own beliefs.

Modern-druids do not have nor celebrate Advent, and I'm quite thankful for that. I don't wish to celebrate through prayer and fasting the birth of a human being that the world professes to be 'greater' than anyone else or related to a 'god' in some way. Aside from that...

I do participate in the secular version of Christmas though, and I enjoy spending time with my family (who are mostly Christians) during this time. I enjoy filling my child's head with the silly trapping of fantasies and wonders and magic like Santa Claus and flying reindeer and little elves who wear wooden shoes.

On the same token, I do not get totally immersed in the commercialism of the season. Every day of my life (not just on Solstice), I take time out to appreciate the delicate balance of life around me. I take the time to appreciate things that are non-commercial. I take the time to teach my daughter how to cherish those things that are really important, and that these commercial things are simply icing (and sometimes too much icing) on a perfect cake.

I'm not offended by your piece. It was clearly written toward a Christian audience; although, I will state that your statement, "Paganism offers no real alternative to the shop-till-you-drop ethos of mainstream culture," is perhaps the only thing that made one small nerve twinge.

I have an alternative to it, it's called meditation and reflection. And this time of year, I do it more than any other time of the year. It's a time I put aside to reconnect with my inner self and nature around me. It's a time when I make plans for renewal of the earth and of my soul as the sun begins to shine a little bit longer each day. Waiting. It's all about waiting for what is to come. Notice any parrallels?

So in short, I see nothing wrong with your assertion that pagans have no advent, and I'm not offended by it. We have none, we want none, and most importantly we need none. We do have an alternative to shopping and to the advent though -- it's just something we find only within ourselves. And just because you as a pagan had nothing there, doesn't mean the rest of us don't.

I love your writing, by the way.